Louise Staley writes:

While on the Greys. I downloaded your most recent database and I see you
have the parents of Alice Grey who married Sir William Knyvett as Sir John
Grey and Constance Holand. Brice Clagett, using heraldry, suggests this link
fails and that the father of Alice Knyvett is John Grey of Kempton, son of
Sir Reynold Grey of Ruthin and his second wife Joan Astley.

Date: Tue, 8 May 2001
From: "Clagett, Brice"
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Lancaster line

Recent posts are in error in saying that Jane Lowe and Muriel Gordon were
descendants of Elizabeth of Lancaster, full sister of King Henry IV. It has
never even been alleged, as claimed in some of these posts, that Jane and
Muriel descended from Edmund Grey, 4th Lord Grey of Ruthin and 1st Earl of
Kent. The allegation (for which see Faris' Plantagenet Ancestry p. 314 and
Roberts' RD 500 pp. 146, 161) is that they descended from this Edmund's
sister, Alice Grey, wife of Sir William Knyvett and daughter of Sir John
Grey of Ruthin and his wife, Constance Holand, daughter of John Holand, 1st
Duke of Exeter, and Elizabeth of Lancaster. But this too is wrong; it will
be corrected in the 2d edition of RD 500, and I believe Dr. Faris had
intended to correct it in his Magna Carta volume. The only record of the
parentage of Alice (Grey) Knyvett is her memorial inscription at New
Buckenham, Co. Norfolk: "Hic iacet Alicia quondam uxor Willelmi Knyvet
Armigeri, Que erat filia Johannis Grey filii Reginaldi Grey Domini de
Rythyn." It has always been problematic to identify this John Grey with Sir
John Grey, K.G., eldest son and heir of the 3d Lord Grey of Ruthin (and
son-in-law of Elizabeth of Lancaster), because the inscription does not
refer to him as a knight and because the accompanying Grey arms show a
crescent for difference, which the heir would not have borne. The solution
is that the 3d Lord Grey had two sons named John. The younger, by Lord
Grey's second marriage, was John Grey (d. 1447) of Kempston, Bedfordshire,
and Barwell, Leicestershire, whose wife's name is unknown. See Dugdale's
Baronage 1:717; Nichols' Leicestershire 4:474, 481 (the chart on the latter
page wrongly calls the younger John a knight); Harl. Soc. Pub. 1:17; ipm of
John Grey, armiger, 26 Henry VI no. 12. This younger John Grey was plainly
Alice's father. Thus the descent of Jane Lowe and Muriel Gurdon from
Elizabeth of lancaster fails.

From: "Clagett, Brice"
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Lancaster line
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001

In my post of May 8 I showed that Alice Grey, wife of Sir William Knyvett,
was not daughter of Sir John Grey, K.G., eldest son and heir of the 3d Lord
Grey of Ruthin, but rather was daughter of Sir John's younger half-brother
John Grey (not a knight). One part of my argument wa that the Grey arms on
Alice's tomb bear a crescent for difference, "which the heir would not have
used." In fact, as I realized after my last post, it can readily be proved
that he did not use a crescent. The garter stall plate of Sir John Grey
still survives and is depicted in a splendid facsimile, Plate LIV, in "The
Stall Plates of the Knights of the Order of the Garter 1348-1485" (W.H. St.
John Hope, 1901). The plate shows the quartered arms of Grey and Hastings
with a silver label for difference, as one would expect for the eldest son
in his father's lifetime. (Sir John d. v.p.) No crescent in sight. It is
often observed that using heraldry to prove a descent is usually a dubious
exercise, since the use of arms so often represents (both today and in the
past) a claim of descent or relationship that is false or unsupported. But
heraldry, if used cautiously, can have its uses in confirming or clarifying
a pedigree, and the above is a good example. Human nature being what it is,
heraldic evidence is most persuasive when it involves the use of a less
pretentious symbol (e.g. crescent) rather than a more pretentious one (e.g.
label).