Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
NameElizabeth Tuchet 
[79, IV-34 8], [76, Wyatt article, p.383], [60, Cobham article, Vol III, p. 346], [60, Audley article, Vol XIV, p. 51]
[79, IV-34 8], [76, Wyatt article, p.383], [60, Cobham article, Vol III, p. 346], [60, Audley article, Vol XIV, p. 51]GeneralYoungest child of 8. [79, IV-34 8], [76, p.359]
FatherJames Tuchet Lord Audley (ca1398-1459)
MotherEleanor Holland
Spouses
1Edward Brooke Lord Cobham of Kent [76, Wyatt article, p.383], [60, Cobham article, Vol III, p. 346]
[76, Wyatt article, p.383], [60, Cobham article, Vol III, p. 346]FatherSir Thomas Brooke (ca1392-1439)
MotherJoan Braybroke Baroness Cobham (ca1404-1442)
Marriagebef 2 Feb 1436 [76, Wyatt article, p.383]
Notes for Elizabeth Tuchet
Faris says her mother was the first wife, Margaret Roos, dau of 8th Ld Roos.
CP III, p. 346, note (d): "See as to her [possibly, or even very probably, Eleanor’s] parentage, The Genealogist, N.S., vol XXVIII, part i, p. 62.
________________
April 2015, TFPL: Brad Verity has written to say:
“The Elizabeth Tuchet (b. c.1420) who was the first wife of Edward Brooke, 6th Lord Cobham (1415-1464), was not the daughter of the 5th Lord Audley (c.1398-1459) and his 2nd wife Eleanor Holland. Complete Peerage is in error when it states so in Vol. 3 (1913), p. 346 (sub Cobham of Kent). Rather, Elizabeth was Lord Audley's daughter by his 1st wife Margaret de Ros (c.1403-by 1429, descended from Edward I). The papal dispensation for the already-contracted marriage of Lord Audley and Margaret de Ros is dated 24 February 1415. Margaret was still living in August 1423, when she and her husband received indults to celebrate mass before daybreak. On 14 February 1430, Lord Audley and his contracted second wife Eleanor Holland received papal dispensation for their as-yet unconsummated marriage, so Margaret was dead by that date, and the earliest a child could have been borne to Lord Audley and Eleanor Holland is 1430. The marriage contract of Elizabeth Tuchet and Edward Brooke is dated 6 November 1436: “James de Audley knight, William Lee 'gentilman' and John Garbray 'yoman' to Edward Brooke knight. Recognisance for 1,000 marks, to be levied etc. in Somerset, Staffordshire and Herefordshire. Condition, that if Edward Brooke shall before the Purification next marry Elizabeth his daughter, on the day of their marriage or within three days after the said James shall pay him or his attorney 400 marks, 100 marks on Michaelmas day following, 100 marks on Midsummer day following, 50l. on Christmas day following, 50l. on Midsummer day following, 50l. on Christmas day following and 50l. on Midsummer day following" [CCR 1435-1441]. So it is chronologically impossible for Elizabeth Tuchet to have been Lord Audley's daughter by his second wife Eleanor Holland.”
I have queried why it should be chronologically impossible. Infant marriages were not uncommon.
______________
In an attempt to resolve the conundrum of the previous section, I tried to ascertain the birth date of the heir to the Cobham barony, John Brooke, 7th baron, and I concluded in his Notes:
“So he was born at the latest in 1451 and at the earliest in 1446. So his parents were probably married by 1445 to 1450 (an illegitimate son would not ha ve inherited the barony).”
So, while she had a papal dispensation to marry in 1436, when did she and her husband James start to consummate their marriage? That is, when did they have their first child? Whenever this was, Elizabeth Tuchet would have been 12 to 14 or so at that time?
The indications are that Elizabeth Tuchet started to give birth about 1445, meaning that she might have been born between 1431 and 1433, or so. This then requires some information on when Eleanor Holand started to consummate her marriage. Regrettably accurate dates for the births of Eleanor’s children are no known; guesses are from 1430 to 1440.
Currently this has taken us little further forward, save to say that the whole question rests on a fine line.
_____________________
However the 1563 Visitation of Norfolk explicitly shows Elizabeth Tuchet as the daughter of Margaret Roos and James Tuchet. The transcription by the Norfolk Archaeological Society has significently more detailed than that made by the Harleian Society. Obviously it would be interesting to have a copy of the entry in the College of Arms’ master version.
____________________
In jul 2002 Chris Phillips added to his site of CP corrections and additions under COBHAM (of kent):
“In November 1436 it was agreed that Edward and Elizabeth would be married by 2 February 1436/7 [Calendar of Close Rolls, 1435-41, p. 101]. Therefore, Elizabeth appears to have been the daughter of James Tuchet, not by his 2nd wife, Eleanor (whose marriage had not been consummated by 14 February 1429/30), but by his 1st wife, Margaret Roos [see Complete Peerage, vol. 1, p. 341]. This is the parentage indicated by a later visitation pedigree [Harleian Society, vol. 32, p. 10; from Harleian MS 1552, a composite version from the visitations of Norfolk, 1563, 1589, and 1613].”
Noe that the Norwich version of the 1563 Visitation is not perhaps a composite but is (I quote from its preface) “... it was transcribed by Sampson Lennard, Blewmantle Pursuivant, in 1618, and some of the Pedigrees have been brought down to that time.” and someone has added in pen “Harl MS 1177” which is not the same as the above Harl MS.
See also Chris Phillips’ posting on GEN-MEDIEVAL-L / soc.genealogy.medieval under the thread titled “Re: John Brooke, Lord Cobham - CP Corrections?” on Mon, 15 Mar 2004.
_____________________
CP III, p. 346, note (d): "See as to her [possibly, or even very probably, Eleanor’s] parentage, The Genealogist, N.S., vol XXVIII, part i, p. 62.
________________
April 2015, TFPL: Brad Verity has written to say:
“The Elizabeth Tuchet (b. c.1420) who was the first wife of Edward Brooke, 6th Lord Cobham (1415-1464), was not the daughter of the 5th Lord Audley (c.1398-1459) and his 2nd wife Eleanor Holland. Complete Peerage is in error when it states so in Vol. 3 (1913), p. 346 (sub Cobham of Kent). Rather, Elizabeth was Lord Audley's daughter by his 1st wife Margaret de Ros (c.1403-by 1429, descended from Edward I). The papal dispensation for the already-contracted marriage of Lord Audley and Margaret de Ros is dated 24 February 1415. Margaret was still living in August 1423, when she and her husband received indults to celebrate mass before daybreak. On 14 February 1430, Lord Audley and his contracted second wife Eleanor Holland received papal dispensation for their as-yet unconsummated marriage, so Margaret was dead by that date, and the earliest a child could have been borne to Lord Audley and Eleanor Holland is 1430. The marriage contract of Elizabeth Tuchet and Edward Brooke is dated 6 November 1436: “James de Audley knight, William Lee 'gentilman' and John Garbray 'yoman' to Edward Brooke knight. Recognisance for 1,000 marks, to be levied etc. in Somerset, Staffordshire and Herefordshire. Condition, that if Edward Brooke shall before the Purification next marry Elizabeth his daughter, on the day of their marriage or within three days after the said James shall pay him or his attorney 400 marks, 100 marks on Michaelmas day following, 100 marks on Midsummer day following, 50l. on Christmas day following, 50l. on Midsummer day following, 50l. on Christmas day following and 50l. on Midsummer day following" [CCR 1435-1441]. So it is chronologically impossible for Elizabeth Tuchet to have been Lord Audley's daughter by his second wife Eleanor Holland.”
I have queried why it should be chronologically impossible. Infant marriages were not uncommon.
______________
In an attempt to resolve the conundrum of the previous section, I tried to ascertain the birth date of the heir to the Cobham barony, John Brooke, 7th baron, and I concluded in his Notes:
“So he was born at the latest in 1451 and at the earliest in 1446. So his parents were probably married by 1445 to 1450 (an illegitimate son would not ha ve inherited the barony).”
So, while she had a papal dispensation to marry in 1436, when did she and her husband James start to consummate their marriage? That is, when did they have their first child? Whenever this was, Elizabeth Tuchet would have been 12 to 14 or so at that time?
The indications are that Elizabeth Tuchet started to give birth about 1445, meaning that she might have been born between 1431 and 1433, or so. This then requires some information on when Eleanor Holand started to consummate her marriage. Regrettably accurate dates for the births of Eleanor’s children are no known; guesses are from 1430 to 1440.
Currently this has taken us little further forward, save to say that the whole question rests on a fine line.
_____________________
However the 1563 Visitation of Norfolk explicitly shows Elizabeth Tuchet as the daughter of Margaret Roos and James Tuchet. The transcription by the Norfolk Archaeological Society has significently more detailed than that made by the Harleian Society. Obviously it would be interesting to have a copy of the entry in the College of Arms’ master version.
____________________
In jul 2002 Chris Phillips added to his site of CP corrections and additions under COBHAM (of kent):
“In November 1436 it was agreed that Edward and Elizabeth would be married by 2 February 1436/7 [Calendar of Close Rolls, 1435-41, p. 101]. Therefore, Elizabeth appears to have been the daughter of James Tuchet, not by his 2nd wife, Eleanor (whose marriage had not been consummated by 14 February 1429/30), but by his 1st wife, Margaret Roos [see Complete Peerage, vol. 1, p. 341]. This is the parentage indicated by a later visitation pedigree [Harleian Society, vol. 32, p. 10; from Harleian MS 1552, a composite version from the visitations of Norfolk, 1563, 1589, and 1613].”
Noe that the Norwich version of the 1563 Visitation is not perhaps a composite but is (I quote from its preface) “... it was transcribed by Sampson Lennard, Blewmantle Pursuivant, in 1618, and some of the Pedigrees have been brought down to that time.” and someone has added in pen “Harl MS 1177” which is not the same as the above Harl MS.
See also Chris Phillips’ posting on GEN-MEDIEVAL-L / soc.genealogy.medieval under the thread titled “Re: John Brooke, Lord Cobham - CP Corrections?” on Mon, 15 Mar 2004.
_____________________