Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
Powys-Lybbe Forbears - Person Sheet
NameMabel Fitzwarren 
[60, Tregoz article, Vol XII/2, p. 21 & 22, note (e)], [74, No 10655, p. 156], [100, John Ravilous, "CP Correction: Fulk III Fitzwarin", 4 May 2003]
[60, Tregoz article, Vol XII/2, p. 21 & 22, note (e)], [74, No 10655, p. 156], [100, John Ravilous, "CP Correction: Fulk III Fitzwarin", 4 May 2003]Deathbef 24 May 1297
GeneralPossibly heir to her mother. Possibly not the wife of John of Ewyas.
FatherFulk (III) FitzWarin (->1250)
MotherClarice d' Auberville (->1250)
Spouses
2John Tregoz Lord Tregoz 
[60, Tregoz article, Vol XII/2, pp. 20-2], [60, Salisbury art, Vol XI, p.373 seq], [74, No 10654, p. 156], [56, Hants of 1530, '75 & 1622-34, pub Harleian 1913, West p. 58], [121, Ewyas Harold, Herefords barony, p. 43]
[60, Tregoz article, Vol XII/2, pp. 20-2], [60, Salisbury art, Vol XI, p.373 seq], [74, No 10654, p. 156], [56, Hants of 1530, '75 & 1622-34, pub Harleian 1913, West p. 58], [121, Ewyas Harold, Herefords barony, p. 43]FatherRobert II de Tregoz (-1265)
MotherJulia Cantelou (->1285)
Notes for Mabel Fitzwarren
m. (1) Wm. de Crevequer, (2) John Tregoz.
There is a strong possibility that (a) her possible brother Fulk died young and (b) if so she was heir to her mother. This is in spite of her father having had sons by his first wife and is in line with Woodcock and Robinson in their “Oxford Guide to Heraldry” pub 1988, pp. 136-7. All that is needed after establishing this is to find who her mother was.
However Carol Mc Donald has discovered some fine roll entries that cause Mabel fitzwarren’s marriage to John Tregoz to be put into question:
(a) Fine Roll entry dated the 7 November 1288 records; Grant, for a fine of 10/, to Mabel, late the wife of John Tregoz, tenant in chief, that she may marry whomsoever she will in the king's fealty.
(b) Writ dated 24 May 1297. Order to the escheator on this side Trent to take into the king's hand the lands late of Mabel, late the wife of John Tregoz, deceased, tenant in chief; inquest following Mabel's death. Mabel, late the wife of John Tregoz. Writ 24 May 25EI. [Bedford] – Inquest held Wednesday after St Barnabas [11 June] 25EI. The manor of Weston, which is of the king's ancient demesnes, held in free marriage of the barony of Averenchis; which manor Maud, daughter of and heir of William de Averenchis the elder, at one time held of the king in chief by service of appearing before the justices in eyre in the county of Bedford. Hamo le Creveker married her and they gave the manor to William their son and heir in free marriage with the said Mabel. This William died without heir of his body so that the said Mabel held the manor for life according to the form of the gift aforesaid. The jury then found that the four daughters or their representatives, of Hamo and Maud, were their heirs of the manor following the death of Mabel. The inquisition held following the death of Mabel, the widow of John Tregoz who died c1288, confirms that she married as her first husband, William de Crevecoeur, the son of Hamo de Crevecoeur and Matilda de Averenchis, and that there were no children from that marriage. Unfortunately the inquisition only dealt with the manor of Weston and gave no other details as what Mabel may have been holding as dower, nor recorded her heirs.
Carol concludes, very fairly:
Point 1 - From the two entries in the Fine Rolls combined with IPM clearly define that Mabel, the widow of William de Crevecouer [died <1263] and John Tregoz [died c1288] died in 1297, was not the wife of John Tregoz [died 1300], baron by tenure and lord by writ of Ewyas in Herefordshire. Unfortunately, there has been no entries found relative to the parentage of this Mabel, or, who was the John Tregoz that she had married as her second husband combined with the lack of any information as to dower that Mabel may have held of her second husband, is certainly of no help to determine who was the John Tregoz that was her husband.
Point 2 – John de Tregoz, lord of Ewyas was also the uncle of another John de Tregoz living after 1265, as confirmed by an undated charter - “John Tregoz” donated “a certain road leading from my garden, which I had from John Tregoz my uncle, to the Street which is called Vriogis-strete” to Ewias Priory.1 The father of this John may have been the Robert Tregoz who was granted a respite from knightood, for a fine, for three years from Michaelmas to Robert Tregoz2 by writ dated 10 June 1256. As Robert II Tregoz would have been aged in his late forties in 1256 and also likely to have held the position of a knight in the royal household in 1227 and 1237, along with the name of Robert only seems to appear in the family of Ewyas, appears to make this a strong conclusion.
Point 3 – Three other records found for a John Tregoz, one who can be eliminated as he was killed in 1267.3 A writ was issued on 12 September 1267 to pardon to John son of Hugh de Strettonesdale for the death of John Tregoz; as it has been found by inquisition made before the king that he killed him in self defence. Another John Tregoz, held land in Norton, as a writ was issued on the 12 April 12694 to grant a partial pardon of John Tregoz of Norton by the testimony of Roger de Clifford, for participating in the damage caused in London by Gilbert de Clare earl of Gloucester and his men. A third John Tregoz was granted by charter dated 11 January 12545 for himself and his heirs, a market on Tuesdays at his manor of Bren, county Somerset, and a yearly fair on the eve and the day of St Bridget. There was no record found in any inquest held following the death of John Tregoz of Ewyas as to him holding the manor of Bren, and can find no reference to the manor with British History Online. As the manor was located in Somerset, this John may have been a another son of Robert I Tregoz and Sibyl de Ewyas given the time frame.
Later in her thesis on the matter she produced:
(a) John Tregoz’ IPM: CIPM EI V3] No. 603. John de Tregoz. Writ 6 September 28EI. John la Warre aged 24, son of Clarice la Warre his eldest daughter who is dead, and Sibyl de Grandisono his younger daughter, aged 30 and more, ae his next heirs. [CFR EI] 26 November 1300 Knaresborough. Order to the escheator beyond Trent to make partition of the lands late of John Tregoz, tenant in chief, into two equal parts and to deliver to John la Ware, kinsman and one of the heirs of John Tregoz, to wit, son of Clarice his first-born daughter, and to and the other heir of John Tregoz, their pourparites of the said lands, except the body of the castle of Ewyas Harold, which the king has assigned to John as senior heir for the capital messuage of the said inheritance, so that he assign to William and Sibyl 60s of land agreed upon between him and them before the king's council at York, and saving Joan, late the wife of John Tregoz, her dower; the said John la Ware and William having done homage.
(b) A deed probably about the same Joan: [CFR EI] 9 February 1302 Roxburgh. Order to the escheator beyond Trent to restore the goods of Laurence de Hamelden and Joan his wife, late the wife of John Tregoz, tenant in chief, which he took into the king's hand on account of their trespass in intermarrying without licence, the king having pardoned Joan for a fine made by Laurence.
Carol winds up with:
Do we take the easy way out for the time being and just record that Joan Unknown was the wife of John Tregoz but cannot confirmed if she was the mother of his children, and leave it to another day to sort out the mess?
My answer has to be yes!
But see the seal for John’s daughter Sybil de Grandison nee Tregoz, apparently including a Fitzwarren quartering for her mother.
_________________
There is a strong possibility that (a) her possible brother Fulk died young and (b) if so she was heir to her mother. This is in spite of her father having had sons by his first wife and is in line with Woodcock and Robinson in their “Oxford Guide to Heraldry” pub 1988, pp. 136-7. All that is needed after establishing this is to find who her mother was.
However Carol Mc Donald has discovered some fine roll entries that cause Mabel fitzwarren’s marriage to John Tregoz to be put into question:
(a) Fine Roll entry dated the 7 November 1288 records; Grant, for a fine of 10/, to Mabel, late the wife of John Tregoz, tenant in chief, that she may marry whomsoever she will in the king's fealty.
(b) Writ dated 24 May 1297. Order to the escheator on this side Trent to take into the king's hand the lands late of Mabel, late the wife of John Tregoz, deceased, tenant in chief; inquest following Mabel's death. Mabel, late the wife of John Tregoz. Writ 24 May 25EI. [Bedford] – Inquest held Wednesday after St Barnabas [11 June] 25EI. The manor of Weston, which is of the king's ancient demesnes, held in free marriage of the barony of Averenchis; which manor Maud, daughter of and heir of William de Averenchis the elder, at one time held of the king in chief by service of appearing before the justices in eyre in the county of Bedford. Hamo le Creveker married her and they gave the manor to William their son and heir in free marriage with the said Mabel. This William died without heir of his body so that the said Mabel held the manor for life according to the form of the gift aforesaid. The jury then found that the four daughters or their representatives, of Hamo and Maud, were their heirs of the manor following the death of Mabel. The inquisition held following the death of Mabel, the widow of John Tregoz who died c1288, confirms that she married as her first husband, William de Crevecoeur, the son of Hamo de Crevecoeur and Matilda de Averenchis, and that there were no children from that marriage. Unfortunately the inquisition only dealt with the manor of Weston and gave no other details as what Mabel may have been holding as dower, nor recorded her heirs.
Carol concludes, very fairly:
Point 1 - From the two entries in the Fine Rolls combined with IPM clearly define that Mabel, the widow of William de Crevecouer [died <1263] and John Tregoz [died c1288] died in 1297, was not the wife of John Tregoz [died 1300], baron by tenure and lord by writ of Ewyas in Herefordshire. Unfortunately, there has been no entries found relative to the parentage of this Mabel, or, who was the John Tregoz that she had married as her second husband combined with the lack of any information as to dower that Mabel may have held of her second husband, is certainly of no help to determine who was the John Tregoz that was her husband.
Point 2 – John de Tregoz, lord of Ewyas was also the uncle of another John de Tregoz living after 1265, as confirmed by an undated charter - “John Tregoz” donated “a certain road leading from my garden, which I had from John Tregoz my uncle, to the Street which is called Vriogis-strete” to Ewias Priory.1 The father of this John may have been the Robert Tregoz who was granted a respite from knightood, for a fine, for three years from Michaelmas to Robert Tregoz2 by writ dated 10 June 1256. As Robert II Tregoz would have been aged in his late forties in 1256 and also likely to have held the position of a knight in the royal household in 1227 and 1237, along with the name of Robert only seems to appear in the family of Ewyas, appears to make this a strong conclusion.
Point 3 – Three other records found for a John Tregoz, one who can be eliminated as he was killed in 1267.3 A writ was issued on 12 September 1267 to pardon to John son of Hugh de Strettonesdale for the death of John Tregoz; as it has been found by inquisition made before the king that he killed him in self defence. Another John Tregoz, held land in Norton, as a writ was issued on the 12 April 12694 to grant a partial pardon of John Tregoz of Norton by the testimony of Roger de Clifford, for participating in the damage caused in London by Gilbert de Clare earl of Gloucester and his men. A third John Tregoz was granted by charter dated 11 January 12545 for himself and his heirs, a market on Tuesdays at his manor of Bren, county Somerset, and a yearly fair on the eve and the day of St Bridget. There was no record found in any inquest held following the death of John Tregoz of Ewyas as to him holding the manor of Bren, and can find no reference to the manor with British History Online. As the manor was located in Somerset, this John may have been a another son of Robert I Tregoz and Sibyl de Ewyas given the time frame.
Later in her thesis on the matter she produced:
(a) John Tregoz’ IPM: CIPM EI V3] No. 603. John de Tregoz. Writ 6 September 28EI. John la Warre aged 24, son of Clarice la Warre his eldest daughter who is dead, and Sibyl de Grandisono his younger daughter, aged 30 and more, ae his next heirs. [CFR EI] 26 November 1300 Knaresborough. Order to the escheator beyond Trent to make partition of the lands late of John Tregoz, tenant in chief, into two equal parts and to deliver to John la Ware, kinsman and one of the heirs of John Tregoz, to wit, son of Clarice his first-born daughter, and to and the other heir of John Tregoz, their pourparites of the said lands, except the body of the castle of Ewyas Harold, which the king has assigned to John as senior heir for the capital messuage of the said inheritance, so that he assign to William and Sibyl 60s of land agreed upon between him and them before the king's council at York, and saving Joan, late the wife of John Tregoz, her dower; the said John la Ware and William having done homage.
(b) A deed probably about the same Joan: [CFR EI] 9 February 1302 Roxburgh. Order to the escheator beyond Trent to restore the goods of Laurence de Hamelden and Joan his wife, late the wife of John Tregoz, tenant in chief, which he took into the king's hand on account of their trespass in intermarrying without licence, the king having pardoned Joan for a fine made by Laurence.
Carol winds up with:
Do we take the easy way out for the time being and just record that Joan Unknown was the wife of John Tregoz but cannot confirmed if she was the mother of his children, and leave it to another day to sort out the mess?
My answer has to be yes!
But see the seal for John’s daughter Sybil de Grandison nee Tregoz, apparently including a Fitzwarren quartering for her mother.
_________________